Today was a hard day !

[Conman52]

Yes as the title says it was a hard day in church. It seems as long as I have been doing this (pimo stuff) at times I still get triggered. I especially wanted to go today to hear my granddaughter talk about her mission in L.A. that ended March 29th. She gave a great talk by LDS standards but everything she talked about seemed so superficial to me. I love her dearly and didn't want to rain on her parade so I told her great talk !! Then onto priesthood where the two guys in the branch who know everything about everything (just ask them) took the over the lesson and went on and on and on about Susan's husband (Bednar) I was thinking I was going to throw up. Does it ever get any better ?? I'm 10 years into my faith crisis and just when I think I'm all over and done with it I get triggered !! Oh help my God . I welcome your comments . Thanks for listening.

[alas]

I don’t get triggered as much when I do attend, which isn’t often. I think I would be more bothered if I was going all the time to keep a spouse happy. As it is, I was a church just before Christmas in our son’s ward, where his family was 3/4 the program. Special musical number with my granddaughter on violin, choir with son, granddaughter, and daughter in law, then another special musical number with daughter in law and granddaughter, and my daughter in law conducting. The choir was weak on tenors because grandson had work. The talks were pretty boring. But if you bring your iPad, you can read without disturbing those around you.

But back when I was attending full time, I learned some tricks. Believe it or not, I learned those tricks from my believing spouse that I was trying to keep happy by attending. I learned one time when one of the speakers said something really bad that I knew would bother my husband. I tried to talk to him about what the speaker had said and found out that he hadn’t heard a word. He was just as gone from that meeting as if he had been sitting at home.

So, hints on surviving with your sanity intact. Take an iPad. It is too hard to read on your phone and books other than scripture are frowned upon. When the talk starts bothering you, that is the purpose of the iPad. A good murder mystery is best. Or fantasy, better fantasy than the kind those around you engage in. Keep in mind religion is pretty much fantasy, and if anyone asks you are reading talks by Bednar, that qualifies as fantasy. Non fiction isn’t attention grabbing enough. You want something interesting enough to keep your mind off the talks. Playing games is too noticeable and will distract those around you and you don’t want to be too obvious to the spouse you are trying to keep happy. And if the spouse objects to you reading, there are mind games you can play. Pretend you are an anthropologist. Study the people, why do they do their ceremonies? What is it about their culture that makes these things meaningful? It helps to have a good background in Margaret Mead. Or pretend you are a psychologist and diagnose their pathologies. Use your imagination and exaggerate symptoms and you can find interesting mental illness in the speakers. Make up stories about the people. “It was a dark and stormy night. Brother X had bored the congregation to tears earlier that afternoon, and now the slightly deranged chorister is lying in wait….” No rules, if you can’t read make up your own fiction. Do NOT pay attention. Whatever you do, do not take the people seriously. Do not personalize any of it.

[2bizE]

I’m sorry for the hard day. Virtual hug going your way.

[moksha]

Or pretend you are a psychologist and diagnose their pathologies.

Like a tour of the State Hospital. Prepare yourself for odd ways of thinking and seek to shove your acceptance and compassion into overdrive. Just know that in less than two hours you will be out in the real world and your granddaughter will have a happy memory of your attendance.

[Hagoth]

Earbuds and eyelid painting.

[Palerider]

Conman,

The psychological toll here must be terribly draining. Is this really better than outing one's self as a nonbeliever?

Does your own psychological/emotional health count for nothing in order to make everyone else happy?

You obviously love those around you more than they love you.

[Conman52]

Thanks for asking Palerider. I often ask myself this very question because it is very very very difficult. My dilemma is that my wife of 45 years is still Tbm because (I believe) her older sister is a Tbm . So until I can convince her about how the tscc is dishonest etc etc I feel stuck because she has said she doesn't want me without the church. Very depressing!!!

[alas]

I understand that. I did it for years. So, it really does help to remind yourself why you are doing it. You just keep in mind that you love her more than you hate the church. And make sure you do happy things with each other to keep you loving her more than you hate the church.

But, as Pale Rider said, you obviously love them (or at least the wife) more than they love you. And often this feeling starts to cause resentment and begins to sicken the love you have for her. I am going to focus on the wife because usually children will continue to love you even if you stop attending church every week. Unless they live with you it doesn’t have that much effect on them. In order not to destroy the marriage, you need to be careful of how much you are suffering because of church. When frustration builds, you need a safe place to vent, and you came to NOM which is healthy and what we are here for. But it is hard to balance the frustration of being forced to attend, with positive feelings that keep it worth it. So, try to find ways to minimize the harm of sitting through church.

One way to minimize it is emotional distance. To get that emotional distance you need healthy self talk. We were all raised to make the church teachings part of our self talk. So, when Bednar is up in conference trying to make us all feel guilty for being normal humans, we click right into the training and tell ourselves we should feel guilty and ashamed of ourselves. And then we feel horrible about ourselves when really, us being human is not something we should feel guilty over. I mean, we can know in our heads we should not feel guilty and ashamed, but the training is hard to combat and most of the time we end us feeling like crap, just exactly how the Bednar creep wants us to. So, when you find yourself having this kind of hard day, look at exactly what was said that bothered you. This will probably make you more angry rather than be soothing, but in the long term, it helps you learn not to let it get to you. So, what was said, exactly? Then ask yourself if it was truly something you should apply to yourself. Most likely it was just something the church wants you to feel guilty about. The church WANTS us to feel like crap so it can offer the solution. “Repentance” but if it isn’t really a problem we should feel guilty over, then it doesn’t need the church’s solution. And even if it IS something we should feel guilty over, that should be none of the church’s business anyway. The church is not God. It should only be between you and anybody you hurt. But the church manufactures guilt and shame so it can tell us that it can tell you it will fix it, when really it can’t because unless you embezzled money from it, it has no part in the hurt, so it should have no part in you fixing a mistake. But church’s survive by causing guilt and shame and then telling people only they can fix it. But it’s a lie.

Another way the church hurts us is by threatening to take away our family. Either because we “sin” and won’t be with them in the next life, or by making them think we are evil if we don’t go along with the church’s blackmail. And it really can damage relationships, which is why you are in the shit position you find yourself in. Notice how often people who leave or doubt are made to be bad. This keeps people in by blackmailing them. “If you leave you will lose your family.” And you know you are being blackmailed. So, you will be less angry if you willingly accept it as what it is. It is manipulation to keep you in the church, or at least pretending to believe, and keeping your mouth shut about real problems. But you have consistently over the time you have been on NOM decided that being blackmailed is worth it to stay married. It is somehow less angering to accept that you have the choice. You are not really trapped. You could tell the wife to shove it and let her go about trying to divorce you over it. It really is your choice. Maybe not all the happy options we might like. But a divorce would hurt the wife too, and you are making the choice that the cost and frustration of staying active at church is more important than risking that the wife really will go for divorce. The church is gonna do what it is gonna do, and try to make your wife feel she has to leave you if you are not a good member. You can’t change that. But you can change getting angry over the situation, if that makes sense.

Anyway, I hope it gets easier. My experience was that it did just took some time. At first, when I had major doubts, it was hard to sit through meetings. But over time, it got easier. Eventually, I figured my still believing husband understood enough about how I felt and that while he wouldn’t like me going inactive, he wouldn’t divorce me over it. And he accepted that attending wasn’t really good for my mental health, and he accepted that I was never going to “fix me” enough that the church would work for me. But your wife is a different person and just because my husband didn’t divorce me, doesn’t mean you wife is like that. You know her and know her feelings.

[Conman52]

Thanks Alas. Certainly one of the most hurtful things I have experienced in life was for my wife to tell me she doesn't want me if I'm not a member. I think this was mean, deliberate , and very manipulating. To me it was akin to the use of a nuclear weapon.

[MoPag]

(((Big hugs for Conman52!!!!!!)))

I'm sorry that the priesthood brethren decided to have a David A. Pickles fest. Super lame....

Can you volunteer to sub in primary? Just throw some crayons and coloring paper at them and scroll on your phone.

[Wonderment]

Certainly one of the most hurtful things I have experienced in life was for my wife to tell me she doesn't want me if I'm not a member. I think this was mean, deliberate , and very manipulating. To me it was akin to the use of a nuclear weapon.

That is a completely unacceptable, cult-like thing to say. Your feelings matter, your life matters, and your mental health matters. It is akin to religious abuse, and it is a control tactic.

[Hagoth]

Thanks Alas. Certainly one of the most hurtful things I have experienced in life was for my wife to tell me she doesn't want me if I'm not a member. I think this was mean, deliberate , and very manipulating. To me it was akin to the use of a nuclear weapon.

When you don't believe The Truth™ it hurts them and they have been taught that they must hurt you back, because they are right so you MUST be wrong. I will never forget the horrible feeling when I finally spoke openly with my wife and her response was, "If I had known this would happen I would never have married you." Yikes.

Of course, they are indoctrinated from Day 1 to think that obedience (to the church and it's manipulative tactics) is the first law of heaven. They are also indoctrinated to think that everyone else in the world is expected to be able to totally change their world view at the drop of a hat when they hear The Truth™, but that we, the chosen, must take great pride in our ability to never budge even an inch. And they naturally mimic the church's manipulative tactics because they have been shown that it is the proper response to self-realization and taffy-pulling. I hate it.

I made a joke earlier about eye paint and earbuds. In a way, that is really what we have to do. I am fully out now, but after years of suffering through pretend devotion I started learning how to have a rich internal life of my own, despite outward participation in The Organization. Someone suggested approaching church as an anthropologist. I guess I took that seriously enough that I retired early and went back to school to study archaeology and anthropology. I was shocked to realize how poorly educated I really was, because the church had squeezed my brain down to a tiny trickle that was permissible within all of the necessary requirements of information avoidance. My church experience then became more and more about observing from an emotional distance, and often being entertained by how the experience was so absurd from the 30,000 foot view. Eventually it was more like how I would have felt visiting the Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists. Of course there are constant triggers that need to be mitigated, but also endless boredom. Reading in church really helped me. I really wished for someone to invent some sort of invisible earbuds.

I guess what I'm saying is that I earned my freedom by very small degrees. There was a lot of hurt, but trying to be the best me and the best husband, despite my apostate ways, got us through the worst of it. I tried to absorb, rather than attack, but I was also quick to point out to my wife when church leaders (past and present) did things that were just plain wrong by the standards of anyone with an intact conscience. Sometimes she didn't want to hear it, but she couldn't pretend it was just Satan speaking through me. It helps to put it in the form of a question. "Do you think that's the best way to do that?" "Can you help me understand how they are protecting children by denying them the gift of the Holy Ghost because their parents are gay?" "Look at this essay on the church website. It says Joseph married a 14-year old behind Emma's back. What do you think was up with that?" The truth is difficult when you live in a fantasy world, but it is possible to grow up by small degrees, and sometimes even graduate.

Anyway, good luck, hang in there, and please keep reaching out to us.

[alas]

My husband at one point admitted that if he had been treated the way the church treated me over my father being a child molester, that he would have left the church. But when I finally reached that point, he still considered divorcing me. So, spouses can fully understand your reasons, and still feel like they just can’t be married to an unbeliever. They are so indoctrinated that anyone who doubts is horribly evil, that they just can’t even see how unloving and actually hateful their reaction is. My husband is normally not at all manipulative and would never force me to do something against my will. But I stayed in the church that was destroying my mental health for some 30 years because I was afraid he would divorce me. That was the one thing he had been taught to force. Free agency is NOT something Mormons believe in. Not when it comes to members leaving the church.

So, yes, your wife’s forcing you to pretend to believe is really a controlling and abusive tactic, but on the other hand, it is the only thing she knows as far as the church goes. And by demanding you stay in the church, she is saying that she doesn’t love you, she loves the role of “priesthood”. Of course it hurts. But, mostly the members are so indoctrinated that they say it because they have been trained to say it. Often, it is not true that they really love the church but not us as a human being. If she was really forced to choose, she might very well decide that you are worth being married to even if you are not a “Peter Priesthood.” But you know her and your feeling is that you don’t dare take the risk, and I understand that completely. I did the same thing for years. But just know that what she is doing she sees as self preservation. She sees it as totally necessary.

Once before I explained to the guys that for women, the church is primarily social, and to maintain her status in that social world, she has to have an active husband. A woman in the church without a priesthood holder is second class out of women who are already second class. So, it drops her down the social status ladder down to worse than nobody and a horrible failure because she didn’t keep her man active. She really is asking you not to do that to her.

[Wonderment]

So if that is the case, then why is she did she say that she did not want him if he was not a member? They have been married 45 years; she must be around 63-65 years old. What man is going to come along and pull her through the veil if she leaves her husband? Because a woman desperately needs a priesthood holder, even to keep up the appearance of being a faithful member, she never should have said that she did not want him. Her behavior is egregious - I don't see how it can be rationalized. Wouldn't she try to do everything possible to try to understand his thinking on this issue and arrive at some kind of "middle ground"? Right now, her actions are so hard line that they amount to religious abuse. "Either attend church, or I don't want you"? That's hardly the attitude of a loving spouse who is instructed to hearken to her husband.

[Red Ryder]

So if that is the case, then why is she did she say that she did not want him if he was not a member? They have been married 45 years; she must be around 63-65 years old. What man is going to come along and pull her through the veil if she leaves her husband? Because a woman desperately needs a priesthood holder, even to keep up the appearance of being a faithful member, she never should have said that she did not want him. Her behavior is egregious - I don't see how it can be rationalized. Wouldn't she try to do everything possible to try to understand his thinking on this issue and arrive at some kind of "middle ground"? Right now, her actions are so hard line that they amount to religious abuse. "Either attend church, or I don't want you"? That's hardly the attitude of a loving spouse who is instructed to hearken to her husband.

There’s a lot to unpack here.

It feels like she is going to drag him to the veil, push him through, then on the momentum of her push she will be pulled through as long as he remembers her new name. then potentially ride off inside heaven looking for something better?

Or why not just drop him, sit in the single sister pew for the rest of mortality, you know the one, and then be righteous enough to hope for a position as wife #2 thru wife #1500 for the rest of eternity.

Problem with option 2 is if she slips up she could then be looking at a wife #2000 - #99999999999 depending on how egregious her sins are.

Mormon heaven is weird.

No offense to women intended, just pointing out the absurdity of Mormon doctrine which in and of itself is offensive to women.

[Conman52]

Even though it doesn't sound like much my small victory over the years is that she knows I am pimo !!!! And she knows I only attend for her. It is a small victory but it's Huge for me.

[HappierNow]

Even though it doesn't sound like much my small victory over the years is that she knows I am pimo !!!! And she knows I only attend for her. It is a small victory but it's Huge for me.

Congratulations Conman on this victory, on communicating to her that you are sacrificing for her because of your love for her. It seems like a good, marriage-strengthening move.

I take hope in alas’ words that it’ll get better over time, and in her coping tips. She mentioned observing the meetings like an anthropologist or psychologist would do, and I had a nice experience with that this weekend as I attended a Christian church with my husband, despite my being an atheist, to support him in his belief system even though I don’t share it. When they started singing the song:

“Some glad morning when this life is o’er.
I’ll fly away;
To a home on God’s celestial shore,
I’ll fly away.”

I thought about why these religious ideas appeal to people, and it occurred to me that at funerals and when thinking about our own deaths, it’s much more pleasant to image that we’ll fly away…that we’ll gain a superpower we’ve never had in this life, that we’ll move on to a better place with less suffering….than it is to think about the cold hard reality of our bodies decomposing in the grave and death being the end of our existence.

The human condition is tough to face. Impermanence is the reality of our lives, and we humans have a hard time coping with it. As I looked around the room at the folks singing about flying away when they die, I felt compassion for them and for myself as we collectively try to cope with life’s hard realities, even if it involves inventing positive illusions to make us less fearful.

I hope things continue to get better for you.

[Conman52]

I listened to mormon stories latest episode with a former relief society president who is now a non-believer but still attends church. It was a great episode she explained how she takes away what works in the church for her and leaves the rest . I highly recommend this .

[Wonderment]

So if that is the case, then why is she did she say that she did not want him if he was not a member? They have been married 45 years; she must be around 63-65 years old. What man is going to come along and pull her through the veil if she leaves her husband? Because a woman desperately needs a priesthood holder, even to keep up the appearance of being a faithful member, she never should have said that she did not want him. Her behavior is egregious - I don't see how it can be rationalized. Wouldn't she try to do everything possible to try to understand his thinking on this issue and arrive at some kind of "middle ground"? Right now, her actions are so hard line that they amount to religious abuse. "Either attend church, or I don't want you"? That's hardly the attitude of a loving spouse who is instructed to hearken to her husband.

There’s a lot to unpack here.

It feels like she is going to drag him to the veil, push him through, then on the momentum of her push she will be pulled through as long as he remembers her new name. then potentially ride off inside heaven looking for something better?

Or why not just drop him, sit in the single sister pew for the rest of mortality, you know the one, and then be righteous enough to hope for a position as wife #2 thru wife #1500 for the rest of eternity.

Problem with option 2 is if she slips up she could then be looking at a wife #2000 - #99999999999 depending on how egregious her sins are.

Mormon heaven is weird.

No offense to women intended, just pointing out the absurdity of Mormon doctrine which in and of itself is offensive to women.

Yes, Mormon doctrine is absurd, and it is offensive to women. But, each of us is given free will; and with that, we can control what comes out of our mouths. What she said to him -- that's about the worst thing I ever heard a TBM say to spouse undergoing a faith transition. That just made me angry. Why must the PIMO member always be the one to offer the olive branch, while the TBM treats the spouse as a doormat. The person going through the faith transition is trying to live an authentic life. The PIMO's feelings matter, and his emotional and social well-being matter also. I feel that is is an abusive thing to say; and she should not have said it. She should be appreciative for his support. ( And that's not because she is a woman, it's because both spouses should show support, appreciation, and gratitude for each other). JMO. Wndr.

[Conman52]

Thank God for Mormon stories that has helped me through almost as much as this wonderful site. I have been listening to the latest episode about the 8 witnesses. Wow how could anybody have ever believed that stuff !! Myself included it's right up there with Trumpism... I think I'm past any triggering now. I do find it fascinating how Jospeh made it up & how the tscc has covered for him sooooo long knowing it was not what it claimed to be. If I look at it through the cover up lens it takes on a different light. I know now people like my wife and her sister believe it because they want to not because they know it to be true but because they want to believe it's true, huge difference!!