Missionaries dropped by yesterday by "random" chance...

[jfro18]

Yesterday afternoon the missionaries stopped by... they said it was just totally random that they were in the area. Long story short, I've been inactive for a while and lately have started researching the church which has caused a lot of stress in the family and my wife over the last few weeks has not taken the kids as we figure it out.

So of course I don't believe it was random in any way, and I also was kind of happy to talk to the because I want to see how far off they are from the "real history" of the church.

Anyway... I told them right off the bat after our small talk that I am happy to talk to them, but I also have a laundry list of issues with the church and if they want to continue discussing it they would have to answer those for me. I made clear that I was not looking to harm their personal testimonies, but that as I've researched the history I have found so many things that I do not believe are real...

The missionaries said they wanted to talk to me more and see if they can guide me back to the church. I told them I have been so much more happy and comfortable with myself since I left, but that I am happy to talk to them if they really want to go down that road.

My wife is aware they stopped by (we have a Ring doorbell so she could even watch the whole conversation if she wanted to... and might have done already), but I have no idea what her thoughts are as far as talking to them again.

Anyway... anyone else ever deal with this? I was polite and did not even really tell them they were wrong. I asked them to explain the translation process to me and they said "Do you mean how he used the ancient glasses to translate the plates?" to which I said that was one of my deal breakers with the church since that's not what happened (but did not go into details). I also asked about polyandry and they said there are good answers about that but we would need to discuss it another time since they needed to get to an appt.

Just curious what people thought- I have no problem talking to them about my issues to see what they would answer with, but I also know that they will have no idea about this stuff and as much as I want more LDS people to know the truth, I actually feel bad unloading this info on missionaries... even though they keep telling me they want me to.

TLDR; Missionaries want to come and talk to me about coming back, and even though I told them I have no interest in coming back I'd be happy to talk to them about my issues. They say they want to do that, but I feel bad basically unloading a ton of church history on them that they clearly do not know about. I feel bad talking to them, but since I warned them 3-4 times and they still want to... I kind of want to see what answers they have.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

It won't be productive, but may be a fun social experiment for entertainment purposes. I feel bad for those poor kids these days, the dissonance must be awful.

[Corsair]

I also asked about polyandry and they said there are good answers about that but we would need to discuss it another time since they needed to get to an appt.

This is the common stage of the vast majority of believer/non-believer interactions in the LDS church. If the answers were actually good, everyone would already know them and you would not be having this conversation with these fresh faced missionaries. I have heard this same "answer" when people have met with historians and apostles. My friends and family attend church weekly without worrying about these thorny problems. If they had to really consider the problems of plural marriage, translation, and prophetic expectations, the church itself would likely have turned into Community of Christ long ago.

[jfro18]

It won't be productive, but may be a fun social experiment for entertainment purposes. I feel bad for those poor kids these days, the dissonance must be awful.

I mean the thing is that I told them multiple times that I am so much happier since I left and that it won't be productive, but that I'd love to hear what they have to say about my issues.

So it's not like I'm being dishonest with them, but man I still feel bad if they do come back.

At one point one of the missionaries told me I was doing research because I felt a longing to have that spirit back. I felt so bad telling him that the reason I was doing the research was because I was terrified that my kids would be subject to the same lies and distortions from the church that I was. I was polite... but direct about it. I have *never* once felt that my life was missing anything since the immediate aftermath of walking away.

[Arcturus]

... I feel bad basically unloading a ton of church history on them that they clearly do not know about. I feel bad talking to them, but since I warned them 3-4 times and they still want to... I kind of want to see what answers they have.

The few Mormons I've talked to about my issues and the specific points of church history that are problematic were traumatized, to say the least. They were so shocked that they wanted to believe it was all made up anti-Mormon crap. But they trust me enough to think otherwise, and have chosen the path of ignorance rather than keep looking. After those experiences, I try to avoid these conversations...

[didyoumythme]

I think you should talk to them about it. They need to know these things, and there is no easy time for them to learn it. The church continues the cycle of lies and ignorance because of this fear. We are always too afraid to talk to people about it for fear of hurting them.

“When my parents die I’ll tell my family”
“when they get back from their missions they will learn”
“this isn’t the right meeting to talk about it”
“I don’t want to ruin their temple wedding plans”
“I don’t want their relationship to be hurt”

Etc.

There is always another Mormon Milestone coming up that we are afraid to disrupt...but this keeps us silent. If you don’t speak up who else will?

[Reuben]

In other words, there's no good time to have a faith crisis, but the earlier the better.

[jfro18]

If they come back I'll definitely talk to them, but I'm not going to seek it out. They know how I feel and I warned them that if they wanted to continue I would be asking a lot of uncomfortable questions, so it's in their hands now.

But truthfully I feel that everyone should be prepared with realistic information - I truly am curious to see what these missionaries know about the first vision, polygamy, polyandry, the priesthood restoration, ban on blacks, zelph, book of abraham, etc. I don't think the church is going to collapse as I've seen many say on reddit (lol), but they are going to lose a lot of millennials that are coming up now through the church if they continue to hide the real history.

[slavereeno]

My son in on a mission an I guarantee he doesn't know all this stuff. Be kind to them, they think they are doing the right thing, but I think its ok to be truthful.

As a mission dad that is disaffected I am not sure what I would want for my son. Ultimately I want him to at least have the opportunity to escape Mormonism. Would being exposed on his mission when the indoctrination is at it peak power just end up inoculating him and then he becomes an apologist? Or would it break his shelf and he would either be miserable for the remainder of his mission or come home early. So far I have not said anything to him myself because I am afraid.

[Reuben]

My son in on a mission an I guarantee he doesn't know all this stuff. Be kind to them, they think they are doing the right thing, but I think its ok to be truthful.

As a mission dad that is disaffected I am not sure what I would want for my son. Ultimately I want him to at least have the opportunity to escape Mormonism. Would being exposed on his mission when the indoctrination is at it peak power just end up inoculating him and then he becomes an apologist? Or would it break his shelf and he would either be miserable for the remainder of his mission or come home early. So far I have not said anything to him myself because I am afraid.

Inoculation isn't necessarily a bad thing. I have a friend who's really into religious history of all kinds, who inoculated me. The inoculation did a few things for me.

It helped me have empathy for leaders and historical figures. It helped me retain my moral authority. It planted a seed of doubt that grew into further unorthodoxy. It lowered the bar for life events that could cause a faith crisis by filling up my shelf. Probably the best thing is that when my faith crisis came, I didn't immediately feel betrayed by the church, which helped my close relationships immensely.

Nah, betrayal came later when I realized how the church would make my life difficult for not believing.

I've been wondering about all the stuff we withhold from people because we want to spare them pain. I'm not sure it's ever really about them. When I feel like protecting my lesbian/bi daughter from the church, I think what's really happening is that I anticipate grieving with her over and over again. I'm really just trying to resist that pain.

[jfro18]

My son in on a mission an I guarantee he doesn't know all this stuff. Be kind to them, they think they are doing the right thing, but I think its ok to be truthful.

As a mission dad that is disaffected I am not sure what I would want for my son. Ultimately I want him to at least have the opportunity to escape Mormonism. Would being exposed on his mission when the indoctrination is at it peak power just end up inoculating him and then he becomes an apologist? Or would it break his shelf and he would either be miserable for the remainder of his mission or come home early. So far I have not said anything to him myself because I am afraid.

We'll see if they come back, but if they do I will be respectful and nice to them but will also be upfront that what I am telling them might be new to them and could be painful for them to hear as it was for me... and that they have a choice to walk away or listen.

I think I told them 3-5 times that it would be best not to go into it with me, and I even told them if they were in the area they could come by anytime to get some water or snacks and just take a few minutes to relax. I really was trying in every way to be respectful and not unload my church issues on them, so we'll see if they end up dropping by again.

[slavereeno]

I'm really just trying to resist that pain.

Yes, this is it really I am telling myself I am "protecting" people around me, truth is I am a coward.

I think I told them 3-5 times that it would be best not to go into it with me, and I even told them if they were in the area they could come by anytime to get some water or snacks and just take a few minutes to relax. I really was trying in every way to be respectful and not unload my church issues on them, so we'll see if they end up dropping by again.

Having my son out there amidst my disaffection is one of my biggest irks right now, I feel like he is being manipulated and emotionally abused and it makes me sad and angry. So I appreciate that for your part you are kind, but truthful.

[jfro18]

I'm really just trying to resist that pain.

Yes, this is it really I am telling myself I am "protecting" people around me, truth is I am a coward.

I didn't talk to my wife for a decade about why I really left the church... we kept it superficial and more along the lines of "I can't get around polygamy, I hate wearing garments, and there are some things that just don't add up."

Looking back on it now, I feel like such a coward for not being willing to do my research then and tell her how I felt. I know at the time I was worried that me telling her those things would end our marriage, so I figured if she was willing to just ignore it then I could too.

I don't know the right answer and I certainly don't know what would have happened if I told her then - we didn't have kids so she clearly could have run for the exit, but I do wish I had told her back then so I could have gone through this back then and not now.

But as you can see on this board it's *never* easy to tell a spouse what you've discovered, and sometimes it works great and the spouse is willing to listen, but often it is stressful and contentious for a long time. Add in kids who are old enough to have already built up that deep belief and it's just excruciating to open up, so I don't blame you one bit. I'm just sorry you're going through it and I'm sorry you have to worry about your son out as a missionary teaching things he probably doesn't know most of the truth on.

[IT_Veteran]

I've been wondering about all the stuff we withhold from people because we want to spare them pain. I'm not sure it's ever really about them. When I feel like protecting my lesbian/bi daughter from the church, I think what's really happening is that I anticipate grieving with her over and over again. I'm really just trying to resist that pain.

That's some pretty heavy-duty self awareness. Kudos to you for being willing to recognize that. I don't think it changes the fact that you also want to spare her pain, just that you recognize there's benefit in it for you too. I think that really informs how we all approach our own faith crises. Yes, we do want to spare our loved ones from all the stuff that comes with continued membership in an organization that isn't what it claims to be, but there's an element of wanting to be in sync with our family members too. Sometimes I wish they all knew everything so they'd just stop bringing up the church so much.

[jfro18]

Updating this one... they came by again today.

They stayed about 30 minutes and we talked church stuff for 20 of it. I told them I was too far gone and that I have too many issues with the church that are confirmed by their own essays/documents... they tried to answer some questions and I told them that the answers did not line up, then they tried to tell me that the adversary is strong to lead us astray. I told them they needed to do more research so that they have a true understanding of what I've gone through and that these are church sources and not anti-mormon writers with an axe to grind.

I have no idea *what* they heard... but I was super calm and told them at the end that while I am happy to talk to them about church stuff, I am just too far gone with church history. I did tell them to stop by any time for water/food if they are in the area and we're always here if they need a break... I tried to be nice and polite, but I did correct them on issues where they were wrong.

Some things I asked them about how they were taught:

Polyamory - They were told that JS married other men's wives because they were not members and the wives needed a way to be sealed. I corrected them about many being church members that were sent on missions when he married their wives.

Tight/Loose translation issues... that's a huge subject but they wanted to go back and forth on it even though they acknowledged it was a problem

Anyway... I feel for them and I was upfront that I have been down the rabbit hole. I hope they can at least walk away thinking I'm not a bad person regardless of how I feel.

Fun times...

[Corsair]

Polyamory - They were told that JS married other men's wives because they were not members and the wives needed a way to be sealed. I corrected them about many being church members that were sent on missions when he married their wives.

This is a bad comedy. The main defense of the church here is that you will feel awkward talking to teenagers about complicated issues so you will drop the subject. If the institutional church did a comprehensive review of the major issues and answers, an embarrassing number of missionaries would also lose their testimonies. But the missionaries are so innocently confident that they can fix the silly problems that Satan has dropped on your confused mind. Someone is going to be emotionally scarred in this encounter.

[slavereeno]

I tried to be nice and polite, but I did correct them on issues where they were wrong.

I guess in my mind I wish this would happen with my DS that's on a mission, someone else would (kindly) break his shelf and he would just come home. Realistically I know that isn't going to happen.

[Margarita]

Hey...I have had this happen to me and they kept coming back. I would talk to them at the door and really never invited them in...but my issues were stated kindly and they asked ME questions..Helen Mar was a big question mark to one of them.

Personally..I think they want to know more from you. Try it one more time..with you kindness and preferred way of what and how much you want to say. I think they want to learn more from you and/or you are the funnest biggest challenge on their mission!!

[jfro18]

Polyamory - They were told that JS married other men's wives because they were not members and the wives needed a way to be sealed. I corrected them about many being church members that were sent on missions when he married their wives.

This is a bad comedy. The main defense of the church here is that you will feel awkward talking to teenagers about complicated issues so you will drop the subject. If the institutional church did a comprehensive review of the major issues and answers, an embarrassing number of missionaries would also lose their testimonies. But the missionaries are so innocently confident that they can fix the silly problems that Satan has dropped on your confused mind. Someone is going to be emotionally scarred in this encounter.

It was so awful and awkward. I have a few more minutes now to give more details... this is when things got a bit weird for us.

So they had referenced multiple times that there are questions we can't know and only God knows, but multiple times they then mentioned how if my spirit was not in tune I would not get that revelation. They also at one point mentioned how the "adversary" can twist our readings of history.

That led me to ask them what they were taught at the MTC about polyandrous marriages, to which they replied that wives without faithful husbands needed a way to get to Super VIP heaven. I asked them how that fits with at least 7 of the 11 of Joseph's polyandrous marriages being to members in good standing, many of which were sent on missions and came home to find out they were now married to Joseph?

I then followed that if I am to believe there are adversaries that cause us to do bad things, I would have to believe that those adversaries would lead people to pressure women into doing things against their will in the name of God. I asked them what they thought about JS telling young women that they needed to marry him and if they did their entire family would receive everlasting exaltation.

They had no answers and you could see it in their eyes. They fell back on the "imperfect prophet" nonsense and then went into the "I am not in this church for JS. I am not in this church for Brigham..." yadda yadda. I followed up that I don't know what I believe after discovering what I did about the LDS church, but I do believe that the teachings of Jesus are good for us and lead us to do good things. I then followed that up by saying that Joseph Smith's doctrines go against Jesus in a lot of ways and caused people to do things that are immoral on every level, so how can you join a church with doctrine brought about by JS but then claim he's not why you're in the church.

Anyway - I was super calm with that... if it reads otherwise it's just hard to type it in as this was a part of a 20+ minute conversation. But you could see it - they would fall back on things and I would immediately reference where in LDS approved sources you can find out that's not true and they had **nothing** to run to.

I felt so bad for them. I feel so bad for my wife sometimes because she has to believe it now because actually discovering the truth would sever a lifetime of teaching along with her family that does not handle questioning the church well.

I feel so bad for everyone who has been sucked into this church and blindly follow it, because they are shape-shifters when they try to defend it.

The tight vs loose translation part of the discussion was where they literally were agreeing with me that you can't have it both ways, and once they did I just took the plane in for a soft landing by pointing out that either way proves the BoM a fake if you have to pick a lane. There's just nowhere for them to go...

It's just so depressing - I wish I could get my wife freed from it so I could just try to forget the church even exists. Until that point though I want to see this thing burned to the ground with its own lies and deception. It is dangerous and it destroys families and all for a con man.

I need to stop now.

[Reuben]

They had no answers and you could see it in their eyes. They fell back on the "imperfect prophet" nonsense and then went into the "I am not in this church for JS. I am not in this church for Brigham..." yadda yadda.

I've noticed that believers who know all the crazy things JS and BY did often conflate forgiving with believing. "We have to forgive them. The church has to be run by imperfect people. It must be so frustrating for Heavenly Father..."

JS's polygamy and all the bullshit he used to justify it and all the lies and bullying he used to cover it up aren't a moral issue for me. I've forgiven him. I used to rejoice to think that if God could forgive all that, God would forgive me, too. I don't think, "JS did all that stuff so he was too wicked to be a prophet." I think, "JS did all that stuff so I can't trust him." Add to that money digging, the Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates, Zelph, priesthood restoration timeline, stories getting more grandiose over time...

He's lost all credibility with me. Every claim for which he's the single witness is something I can barely believe.

And everything where he's one of two or three witnesses is suspect for other reasons. His receiving D&C 76 with Sidney Rigdon is a fine example. Philo Dibble's account makes it obvious that they were employing some protocol to keep their shared vision in sync while they made it up together in front of everyone. "What do I see? I see my porridge on the table." "I see it, Joseph. What do I see? I see that it's getting cold." "I see it, Sidney." You have to really want to buy into it to not see what's going on.

Anyway, it's not about moral judgment. It's about lack of credibility.